Posts by Disillusioned JW

41

Why are JW's THIS blind?

by BoogerMan in

i had a conversation about this 22 carat gold contradiction with a couple of zealous jw's a couple of days ago.. even their personal "explanations" contradicted each other as they tried justify their cognitive dissonance!.

an absolute delight to witness such absurdity.. "after all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world.

the unrighteous must have practiced these vile things [john 5:29] before their death.

Disillusioned JW

BoogerMan I noticed that you said the following to me. "... thanks for your opinion on what you think the WT is saying regarding "practicing" evil deeds, and that you agree with it". But I did not mean that I agree with that idea of the WT. I just meant I recognize the WT has such a teaching. Regarding what the book of Revelation says, there is much about it which I don't know how to interpret. For some examples consider the following.

The order of many events in the book of Revelation don't seem to be same order as the verses mentioning those events. It is very unclear to me to what degree various descriptions are figurative. Are they mildly figurative or very figurative and very symbolic? For example are a literal 1/3 of trees and 1/3 of grass to be burned up, and is such supposed to happen before the actions of that which is symbolized by the various wild beasts? Do those trees and grass instead represent certain groups of people, and if so, which groups of people? The WT says the those trees and/or grass are Christendom (or the leaders of such and/or the people of such), but I don't think Revelation at all is saying that Christians (even that which the WT calls the people of Christendom) will have woes sent upon them by God as punishment. The book is written to provide hope to Christians, though some of the verses in chapters two through three criticize some congregations of Christians.

When Revelation 20:5 says the rest of the dead do not come to life until the 1000 years have added, I don't know if it means that literally (with no resurrections taking place during the 1000 years) or if it means it in the sense that the WT's book called Babylon the Great says it, or in some other sense. The Babylon book points out that that verse is not in some of the oldest manuscripts of Revelation chapter 20, and thus I wonder if the verse is a corruption of the text (something which was added to the text).

Regarding Revelation 6:2 I don't know if the verse is trying to convey the idea that the rider of the white horse is Jesus Christ, or the antichrist, or a false religious leader, or a ruler of a human government, or someone else, or an organization (such a government or empire).

3

Happy (Substitution) Resurrection Sunday !

by Sea Breeze in

why is the substitution atonement hidden under piles of nonsense in wt literature?

the bottom line is that those who join the the wt as adults, found a religion that agrees with their personality and nature.

yes, they will say jesus makes it possible, but each jw gets to individually take credit for their own salvation.

Disillusioned JW

Thank you Sea Breeze for your reply to my question; you gave excellent answers.

41

Why are JW's THIS blind?

by BoogerMan in

i had a conversation about this 22 carat gold contradiction with a couple of zealous jw's a couple of days ago.. even their personal "explanations" contradicted each other as they tried justify their cognitive dissonance!.

an absolute delight to witness such absurdity.. "after all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world.

the unrighteous must have practiced these vile things [john 5:29] before their death.

Disillusioned JW

I am saying that the WT article is saying that during the millennium no person will practice evil deeds, tough some people might commit some evil deeds. According to the WT, during the millennium some badness (and maybe even some evil deeds) will take place, but according to the WT God will intervene to prevent people from making a habit (a practice) of committing evil deeds.

But keep in mind that though I believe the WT (and maybe even the book Revelation) is teaching the above, I also believe there will not be a 1000 year rule of Jesus Christ in which Satan will be in the abyss. That is because I am now an atheistic naturalist who is convinced that (despite what the Bible teaches) Satan the Devil never existed, that Jesus never became resurrected, and that Jesus never lived in heaven.

41

Why are JW's THIS blind?

by BoogerMan in

i had a conversation about this 22 carat gold contradiction with a couple of zealous jw's a couple of days ago.. even their personal "explanations" contradicted each other as they tried justify their cognitive dissonance!.

an absolute delight to witness such absurdity.. "after all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world.

the unrighteous must have practiced these vile things [john 5:29] before their death.

Disillusioned JW

Notice that the WT also used the word "practiced" as a modifier on page 19 paragraph 18.

41

Why are JW's THIS blind?

by BoogerMan in

i had a conversation about this 22 carat gold contradiction with a couple of zealous jw's a couple of days ago.. even their personal "explanations" contradicted each other as they tried justify their cognitive dissonance!.

an absolute delight to witness such absurdity.. "after all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world.

the unrighteous must have practiced these vile things [john 5:29] before their death.

Disillusioned JW

ExBethelitenowPIMA is correct in saying that the WT did not contradict themselves in regards to what is quoted in the opening post of this topic thread. Months ago in a different topic thread the same subject was discussed and I explained there that there was no contradiction by the WT in that matter.

BoogerMan and others, on p. 18 paragraph 14 the WT defines what they mean by a person who is resurrected as an unrighteous person. That kind of person is defined by the WT as one who practiced vile things before their death and subsequent resurrection. Furthermore, when the WT said "The unrighteous must have practiced these vile things before their death" the WT is writing about a death which was experienced before their resurrection during the 1000 years, and thus a death experienced before the start of the 1000 years - not a death during the 1000 years (as punishment/execution) and not a death at the end of the 1000 years. It also says that during the 1,000 years no one will be allowed to practice vile things, it does not say that during the 1000 years that no one will be allowed to do a vile thing. That is an important distinction to keep in mind. There is a big difference between doing something once and making a practice of doing something.

On page 19 paragraph 18 the WT says that those who are resurrected during the 1000 years will be judged by the deeds (good and/or bad) they do during the 1,000 years. But, notice that on page 18 the WT used the word "practiced" as a modifier.

During the years when I was an active baptized JW (in the 1980s through the 1990s) the WT literature explained what they meant by their use of phrase "practice sin" (instead of simply saying "sin" or "do a sin") and in one verse in the WT's 1984 NWT NT (in a letter of John, I think) they draw a distinction between that phrase of "practice sin" (or something close to it) and the phrase "commit a sin" (or a phrase close to it). Basically the one practicing vile things are ones who repeatedly do vile things, rather than those who did a vile only once (or perhaps only twice or so). It is kind like one of he criteria the JW elders use when deciding if a guilty JW should be disfellowshipped or not, or if the person should be publicly reproved or not. Namely, the elders try to determine if the person made a practice of doing the wrong, a habit of doing the wrong, or not.

The WT teaching of the judgment of people during the 1000 years is more comparable to what currently happens to people in probation (such as by the prison system, by an employer to an employee, and by parents to their child), than it is comparable to the doctrine of purgatory. The purgatory doctrine says that people will suffer in purgatory (while being judged) until they have been purified.

26

Has the Governing Body EVER apologized for anything?

by Wild_Thing in

jw
friends

geoffrey jackson testified to the arc that the governing body has apologized for things in the past, so an apology to sexual abuse victims is "perceivable".

what has the governing body ever apologized for?.

22 q. just on that point, mr jackson, has the governing body23 considered apologising to survivors of child sexual abuse24 at the hands of elders within the organisation?25 a. i haven't been in any discussions with regard to that.26 27 q. is that something that you foresee might happen ‐ in 28 other words, that an apology at least be considered?29 a. the governing body has apologised on other matters, so30 for me to say ‐ i can't speak collectively for everybody, 31 but we have apologised on things in the past, in other32 areas, so it is perceivable.. .

Disillusioned JW

Which article was it, regarding the plane? What content did the bound volume have to replace both articles? I wish to check my 1980 bound volume of the Awake!.

3

Happy (Substitution) Resurrection Sunday !

by Sea Breeze in

why is the substitution atonement hidden under piles of nonsense in wt literature?

the bottom line is that those who join the the wt as adults, found a religion that agrees with their personality and nature.

yes, they will say jesus makes it possible, but each jw gets to individually take credit for their own salvation.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze, do you believe in "once saved, always saved - even for those who later become atheistic naturalists"?

In one of Paul's letters Paul said fornicators (as well as a number of other types of sinners) won't enter God's kingdom, but many Christians who supposedly became saved are such sinners. According to scripture, are those Christians really saved or are they instead blocking from entering God's kingdom? The WT governing body members claim to have the heavenly hope, to be anointed ones, to be in the new covenant, and to have Christ as their mediator. According to scripture, are they thus saved?

5

If Jesus' Resurrection Were a Hoax....

by Sea Breeze in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23unllbos3w .

Disillusioned JW

More broadly (if I recall correctly), Paul said if there is no resurrection (or he said if there will be no resurrection) of the dead, then Christians are the most to be pitied. I am now an atheist ex-JW and ex-Christian who believes there is no resurrection of the dead.

It is indeed pitiable when people make major personal sacrifices due to a belief and hope in something which is not reality. A great many people have wasted much of their life in some of their practices of religion (whether of Christianity or of something else).

5

How to be Thrown under the JW Bus

by Vanderhoven7 in

i think we produced this by group think and bears reiterating.. if you don’t want to be thrown under the bus in jw land, you best not.

1. verbalize disagreement with any official teaching of the society.. 2. celebrate your child’s birthdays.

3. celebrate christ’s birthday on december 25th or any other date.. 4. socialize with others who have already been thrown under the bus.. 5. take up smoking.

Disillusioned JW

Smoking defiles the body and is deadly. I am very grateful that it is now banned in all workplaces (other than businesses which specifically are for smoking) in the USA. I am also thankful that smoking is banned by the WT for all JWs and that the kingdom halls around the whole are environments free of tobacco smoke. I am thankful that I was raised in a household entirely of nonsmokers, and in a home that was free of smoke (other than from food cooking in the kitchen and from some smoke from wood burning in the fireplace). Secondhand tobacco smoke in the home is extremely hazardous to human health, and I am so glad I was never exposed to it at my home, at the schools I attended, in the government buildings I entered, and while working indoors.

I am also glad that JWs are mandated to never join a military. When I read the OT Bible (and the NT prophecies in Revelation of war) I am appalled by accounts of wars and various other killings of humans in the name of YHWH/Jehovah God, and in killings of humans that were not done in God's name. Reading those accounts (including the account in Esther chapter 9 of an enormous massacre, in regards to the beginning of the Jewish/Hebrew holiday [a so-called 'holy day'] of Purim) depresses me. To the extent that I the believe that some the biblical accounts of such killings are factual, I am very angry that such killings happened.

Likewise I am appalled and depressed of the accounts of wars in more recent times, including of the wars from 1914 onward.

I am also appalled and sometimes depressed when reading WT literature which glories the so-called future war by the so-called Jehovah God of the so-called Armageddon, despite me believing such a war will never happen. I am appalled and sometimes depressed by it because the message of such is an unpleasant concept. It is one thing to promote the so-called God's defense of his so-called people, and another to promote that such will be by killing billions of other people. Likewise appalling is the message that Jehovah God will execute atheists and all worshipers of a nonJW religion, and that a beast-like government (especially one which supposedly will be a worldwide government) will severely oppress and even kill enormous numbers of people.

So much of the so-called 'Holy' Bible is very disturbing, appalling, and depressing, even when a person views parts of it as fictional. Likewise, so much of the literature of the WT's JW religion has the same effect on me when I read it.

60

WARNING! If you DELIBERATELY avoid the JW memorial.....

by BoogerMan in

.......you will experience a fate worse than death!

you have been warned - don't come crying to me if you don't go.

you've got one month to change your mind.

Disillusioned JW

See https://phys.org/news/2022-01-oldest-human-fossils-older.html regarding Homo sapiens.

See https://www.livescience.com/oldest-homo-erectus-fossil-dremolen.html and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_erectus regarding Homo erectus. The last paragraph of the Live Science article says the following. "Because fossil remains of Australopithecus and Paranthropus found at Drimolen date to the same time period, this research suggests the three archaic hominins all lived side-by-side in southern Africa at the same time — albeit briefly. This era would have been a moment of transition, the researchers wrote, right before Australopithecus went extinct and Homo erectus was just beginning its nearly 2 million-year residency on Earth. Indeed, the authors concluded, it could be that fierce competition with Homo erectus and Paranthropus finally led to the demise of Australopithecus — a possibility never seriously considered until now."

The Wikipedia article says the following. "Homo erectus (/ˌhoʊmoʊ əˈrɛktəs/; meaning "upright man") is an extinct species of archaic human from the Pleistocene, with its earliest occurrence about 2 million years ago.[2] Its specimens are among the first recognizable members of the genus Homo."